Jointing However, realize you are doing your job a service by ordering enough concrete which means you are going to have a little concrete left. Excavator, Tractor clearing trees! 25G Tower - One 5/8" Line on each face ( Total =3) calculations are etc. Pre-mixed concrete is usually sold by the cubic yard, and this unit is used by default. The production of concrete is quite time-consuming. How To Install Veneer rounded up to the next highest whole bag). Antenna Parts Outlet Title: 25SS035.pdf () Author: cwestermann Created Date: 4/14/2015 2:27:37 PM Keywords () ","groupingsymbol":"","readonly":true,"hidefield":false,"fBuild":{},"parent":"","predefinedClick":true},{"dependencies":[{"rule":"","complex":false,"fields":[""]}],"form_identifier":"","name":"fieldname5","shortlabel":"","index":4,"ftype":"fCalculated","userhelp":"","userhelpTooltip":false,"csslayout":"","title":"40Lb bags needed","predefined":"","required":false,"size":"medium","eq":"(fieldname1*27)\/.3\n","suffix":"","prefix":"","decimalsymbol":". ROHN 25SS040 40' Self-Supporting Tower, No Ice $1,11500 $534.99 delivery February 23 - March 1. Then use the calculator to figure the amount of concrete needed. Dividing 6,666 by 80 produces the rounded up number of 84. What type of dam is Hoover? Full content visible, double tap to read brief content. For smaller jobs, like a walkway, modest patio or footings, you should calculate the number of concrete bags instead. the It looks like WhatsApp is not installed on your phone. It has very low thermal conductivity. and Sealing Cracks In Does this kit include everything I need? Rock Quality Designation (RQD) values and compressive strengths should be determined. Visit our knowledge base for more ROHN 25G Tower Configurations, Foundation and Grounding Detail Information. I would highly suggest not "burying" a section of tower into concrete. Help others learn more about this product by uploading a video! It binds the aggregates, as mentioned earlier, together. Search for Products | FAQs | Fast-Setting Concrete you need. Also enter quantity and price to calculate total volume and cost of materials when you enter the price per cubic foot, price per cubic yard or price per cubic meter. Figure driveway 14' x 20' and your estimate will be good. wall using a traditional 3 coat or 2 if(framed=='yes'){base=top.document;}var rn=Math.random(); Here is one of the main reasons why cement and concrete are so often confused: there is cement in concrete. You may have been in a situation similar to this: you have decided to build your own house, a terrace or a fence. By the end of the 19th century, America had built its first concrete bridge (the Alvord Lake Bridge in San Francisco, California) and its first concrete street (in Bellefontaine, Ohio, and it is still around today). Ready mixed concrete by the yard is good for: If youre planning to order concrete from a ready mix supplier, theyll need to know how many yards of concrete to deliver. There is no need of performing manual compaction. Click Here for: What You Want to Know about Shipping! Tubes: The You are using an out of date browser. construct your stucco https://www.calculatorsoup.com - Online Calculators. If you want to use a specific concrete mix ratio, our calculator will give you the volume of cement and aggregate (like sand or gravel) your column needs. Note that the short concrete base can only be connected one ONE end. Finish Coat Stucco you will need to 4. The density varies between 3000-4000 kg/m. ","groupingsymbol":"","readonly":true,"hidefield":false,"fBuild":{},"parent":""},{"dependencies":[{"rule":"","complex":false,"fields":[""]}],"form_identifier":"","name":"fieldname7","shortlabel":"","index":4,"ftype":"fCalculated","userhelp":"","userhelpTooltip":false,"csslayout":"","title":"60Lb bags needed","predefined":"","required":false,"size":"medium","eq":"(fieldname1*27)\/.45\n","suffix":"","prefix":"","decimalsymbol":". calculator the "attached documents" do not indicate this. Hurricane Harvey Relief Fund. Q: Details Select delivery location Only 19 left in stock - order soon Qty: 1 Buy Now Secure transaction Ships from Antenna Parts Outlet Sold by Antenna Parts Outlet Returns Eligible for Return, Refund or Replacement within 30 days of receipt Details The actual depth of boring must be determined by the Geotechnical Engineer based on reactions, soil conditions and the type of foundation recommended. Prestressed Concrete - a special type of reinforced concrete in which the reinforcement bars are tensioned before being embedded in the concrete. We assume a 5% loss in wastage and spillage. & The calculator will indicate the number of bags you Just divide the total weight needed by the weight in each bag. pavers. var framed = 'no'; thickness, waste, etc.). We need 4 cubic yards of cement, our producer sells cement in bags weighing 60 lb with a 150 lb/cu ft density. This route may work if you utilize the proper epoxy to tie the bar into the concrete and have a good embedment. Use the footing calculator to calculate the sides of the porch and the steps, A short load charge from the ready mix supplier, A cold joint can occur (where one pour ended and another pour began). (all yields are approximate and do not allow for uneven substrate, Aggregates (DATA SHEET). Check out 9 similar cement and concrete calculators . With this tool, you'll find out how to calculate your concrete requirements to be precise, you'll work out the volume of your column and how much concrete it needs. To determine how many bags of concrete you will need, divide the total cubic yards needed by the yield. As briefly discussed above, our concrete column calculator can help you find the volume and weight of concrete needed for your concrete column project. information for homeowners andprofessionals. After you have chosen a Ready Mix Supplier, have a representative come to your site to give his/her opinion on the quantity required. ","groupingsymbol":"","readonly":true,"hidefield":false,"fBuild":{},"parent":""},{"dependencies":[{"rule":"","complex":false,"fields":[""]}],"form_identifier":"","name":"fieldname7","shortlabel":"","index":5,"ftype":"fCalculated","userhelp":"","userhelpTooltip":false,"csslayout":"","title":"60Lb bags needed","predefined":"","required":false,"size":"medium","eq":"(fieldname1*27)\/.45\n","suffix":"","prefix":"","decimalsymbol":". This 12" x 12" footing needs to be calculated 12" x 16" so the footing is figured to go above grade to reach the 4" slab thickness. Cohesion Please make sure that you are posting in the form of a question. pound bags of QUIKRETE Mortar Mix you For concrete, the formula for volume is as follows: length x width x thickness. 13. Many ready mix companies will have a minimum order of 1 yard, and will charge shortage fees when ordering partial batches. Professional Installation Required*, 1-1/4" OD, 16 Gauge legs 5/16" OD Solid Bracing Completely hot-dipped galvanized after fabrication. ","groupingsymbol":"","readonly":true,"hidefield":false,"fBuild":{},"parent":""},{"dependencies":[{"rule":"","complex":false,"fields":[""]}],"form_identifier":"","name":"fieldname8","shortlabel":"","index":6,"ftype":"fCalculated","userhelp":"","userhelpTooltip":false,"csslayout":"","title":"80Lb bags needed","predefined":"","required":false,"size":"medium","eq":"(fieldname1*27)\/.6","suffix":"","prefix":"","decimalsymbol":". Please refer to the "ROHN 25G Tower" Link appearing in the Footer of this Page Below! This Product Order Supplies the Following BOM (Less Foundation and Installation) in accordance for Use as a Self Supporting 40 Foot ROHN 25G Tower with with EPA's (Effective Projected Area) Ratings for 70, 80 or 90 MPH (No Ice). This Height Configuration relies on a R-SB25G5 Embedded in a Concrete Foundation Specified by Engineering. These items are not provided and can be purchased separately. Here are the in-depth steps for columns: Now that we know how to calculate concrete volume, we can go ahead and solve the number of bags you need for your project or the amount of each concrete component (cement, sand, and aggregate) we need. JavaScript is disabled. To determine how many bags of concrete you will need, divide the total cubic yards needed by the yield. How toOrder So it is important to check a variety of spots on your footing and get an average size. Recommended construction techniques and inspections, ROHN 25SS010 Complete 10 Foot Self Supporting Tower. It reduces the dead load and increases the speed of building, therefore, decreasing costs. The we need 284 bags of concrete. Tubes: For 1/2 inch Wide Joint by 1/4 inch Deep: For 3/8 inch Wide Joint by 3/8 inch Deep: For 1/2 inch Wide Joint by 1/2 inch Deep: The calculator will The total concrete needed for the 3 by 3 porch will be .28 cubic yards. Calculate volumes for concrete slabs, walls, footers, columns, steps, curbs and gutters. The most straightforward answer to this is: it depends. SHEET, Pouring & Finishing We need 6.28 cubic yards (4.8 m3) of cement, and our producer sells cement in bags weighing 60 lb (25 kg) with a density of 150 lb/cu ft (2400 kg/m3). First of all Thanks to both you that answered so far. QUIKRETE If youre purchasing bagged concrete you may be able to have it delivered, but if it is only a few bags youll be responsible for transporting it yourself. It may not display this or other websites correctly. Good advice already given. The total weight of concrete that we need is 16,201.03 lb. Someting that may look like a little surface rust on the outside, but rotted on the inside. The average cost of a concrete slab (6 inches thick) is about $5.00-5.50 per square foot, including both materials and labor. To figure out how much concrete you need to buy, you simply need to multiply the volume required by the density of the concrete mixture. Cement is one of the ingredients of concrete. 45G Tower - One 7/8" Line on each face ( Total = 3 @ 7/8" & 3 @ 1/2") Joints, Sealing Bags: For 1/2 inch Brown Coat Over Masonry or Concrete Wall: Finish Coat Stucco at 1/4 inch Thickness: The calculator will indicate the number Ready-mix - prepared in concrete plants and transported via concrete mixer trucks to allow for delivery prior to setting time. So let's say we have 4 concrete elements, each 3 feet long, 3 feet wide, and 3 feet high. Foot Your delivery location must be able to accept a full size semi. 5. Dewatering or site drainage requirements Each section contains all required nuts and bolts shipped with each section. may require 10% Brief content visible, double tap to read full content. Its density depends on several variables: the content of the cement, the amount of water added, the amount (and density) of the aggregate used, and the amount of entrained air. Concretes, Repair How-To Videos | Download our Mobile App | *Be sure your contact number is current on your order*. One cubic yard of concrete weighs approximately 4,000 pounds or 1,814 kg. 140mph , A: Other properties unique to site conditions. Using a Margin of Safety: Problems Caused by Underestimating the Amount of Concrete. Please try again. 3/8", After determining the volume, the next step is to select your preferred concrete mix. However, the price can go up to $9-10 per square foot depending on multiple factors and enhancement decisions and their . Check out 9 similar cement and concrete calculators . Q: your Only this time, annoyed, you buy much more, and by the end of the project you're left with half of all these extra bags of concrete with absolutely no use for them. '); Never try to order the exact amount of needed concrete. Once the ingredients are mixed, workers must cast the concrete in place before it hardens. Mortar Mix, or Fast-Setting Concrete you will need for the following projects. You can find some of the types below: Ordinary or plain concrete - one of the most commonly used. on QUIKRETEproducts. . Coat: Over 1/2 inch Thick Bond Coat Directly Over Masonry Also check all of the members for breaks, bends, cracks or other deformations. If a forklift is not available at the delivery location (such as a residence or business without a dock), you will be required to unband the pallet and remove the tower sections from the truck by hand (average weight is 45 lbs per section). If you check your grade and one spot is 4", some spots are 4.5" to 5"-the best solution for both the job quality and your concrete budget is to fix the grade. coat, bond coat and jointing mortar of bags you Geological description of site Even in a mild climate, the safe limit for self-supported 25G is 40 feet. lb. will be about $3,200 - 3,520. When cement is blended with water, it creates a paste. Surface Do what the manufacturer says. the area at Experienced contractors usually assume 5-10%. to get updates on products, offers and all things oz Bags: - Technical Data Approximately 160,000 cubic yards . Now you know how many bags you truly need. Reinforced concrete - most important type. 6" As construction elements are usually measured in feet, our calculator converts the volume into cubic yards - in our example, 4 cu yd (108 cubic feet). With one-touch product and project No measurements i seems just like they used a 10 foot section in the ground and he cut he when he got it and its about waist height. The BGK3G Grounding Kit is an OPTIONAL kit for the ROHN 25G "Self-Supporting" Tower Series. More than 6,600,000 tons. Concrete is not a standalone material; it's a composite, a mixture of: Cement is a binder in the form of fine binding powder. ProductDirectory Your final cost will depend on the slabs size, thickness, and if you any special reinforcement such as wire mesh or rebar. Adding the terms of our ratio, 1, 2, and 4, together, we get a sum of 7. A rented mixer can be very helpful, but a wheelbarrow works for just a few bags. and for use Yes, house brackets are available. (Example: For a 6 feet above ground Made of cement, sand and coarse aggregates. So if you need three yards, that would be around 12,000 lbs (3yds x 4,000lbs). +'::'+invisible+'::'+rn+"::"+escape(base.URL); Amazon has encountered an error. The average cost of a concrete slab (6 inches thick) is $5.00-5.50 per square foot, including materials and labor. This tower was perfect for the client. Our sand calculator and this gravel calculator will help you to figure out how much of each material you will need for your building site. Design parameters for uplift, download and lateral load This tower kit ships via freight only. Cautions These towers are not designed to support more than 20 ft above a bracket. However, most ready mix suppliers estimate that a cubic yard of concrete weighs about 4,000 lbs. Sometimes you hear people use the terms concrete and cement interchangeably, but that's not correct. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. are approximate A mixture overloaded with cement paste will be easy to place and will create smooth surface but will result in uneconomical concrete, susceptible to cracking. ","groupingsymbol":"","readonly":true,"hidefield":false,"fBuild":{},"parent":""}],{"0":{"title":"Columns Concrete Calculator","description":"","formlayout":"top_aligned","formtemplate":"cp_cff_clean","evalequations":1,"evalequationsevent":2,"autocomplete":1,"persistence":0,"customstyles":""},"formid":"cp_calculatedfieldsf_pform_3"}]; Heres what the math looks like for a 10 by 10 concrete patio: Essentially you are solving for volume and then converting to cubic yards. will Figure depths and widths as they have been built on the site, not simply what the plans say. a) The following properties, for each soil layer encountered, should be determined by field or laboratory testing and summarized in the geotechnical report: 1. So it is important to check a variety of spots on your footing and get an average size. number of 50 lb. Site access and potential construction difficulties Number This way, you can also estimate the concrete slab cost. Used on floors, domes, etc. Please use a different way to share. The excavator may have dug too deep, or it may have rained and footings needed to be dug out deeper to reach firm soil. It also sounds as if you'll be able to tie the side of the tower to the house near the ridge-line (also helpful). Let's start with the definitions. Once in the upper tanks it is gravity fed to our house. 4 Place each 10 ft. tower section on the ground, end to end, in the correct order of assembly tapering away from the base. Mainly, because if it is a hollow tube tower "which im sure it is" the legs may start to rust VERY quickly where the legs become incased in cement, sometimes from the inside of the legs working torward the outside. Divide 27 cubic feet of concrete in a cubic yard by the volume of the concrete bag. The foundation was cast with ragbolts to bolt the tower to, then more concrete was poured in on top putting the mounting plate in the middle of a couple of cubic metres of concrete. Visit our knowledge base for more ROHN 25G Tower Configurations, Foundation and Grounding Detail Information. - Concrete Slabs Steps seem tricky to calculate but are not. 12. number of By using the G-Series tower as a self-supporting structure, you minimize land area usage. Figure driveway 14 x 20 and your estimate will be good. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7nIEwPTGC4 --~--PART 2 conclusion! We'll also give you a helpful hand with estimating how many bags of concrete you'll need - so our tool is a great premix concrete bag calculator, too! The Thanks for all the help i kinda changed my plan some and this is what it is. Not enough paste will result in rough, honeycombed surfaces and porous concrete. Use the slab calculator to figure the concrete needed for the porch surface. Through a process called hydration, the cement and water harden and bind the aggregates into a mass similar to a rock. inch hole diameter: For 3 inch post diameter / 9 of 80 lb bags of QUIKRETE They are 4 feet in height and 10 inches in width (diameter), or 4' x 10". Terms of Use | Disclaimer | project. Precast concrete - the term refers to prefabricated concrete blocks. All towers must have "fixed" bases. b) It is not ROHNs purpose or intent to supercede the Geotechnical Engineers knowledge, judgement and/or experience. Concrete Crack Sealant or 10.1 inch x 6 If you are determined to have it be free standing without any sort of guying or bracing, be sure to go over every weld to ensure there are not cracks. In 1904, the first concrete skyscraper was built in Cincinnati, Ohio. | indicate Where do you live (seismic area or not)? Soil conditions swamp like water table not to far down maybe 3ft give or take depending on rain. Pouring plain concrete costs $5 to $10 per square foot depending on the quality, while colored, stamped, or stained concrete costs $8 to $18 per square foot to install. However, the price can go up to $9-10 per square foot depending on numerous factors and enhancement costs. Not currently guyed pivoted up to the house then bolted through plate and mounted to house. and place 3 feet in the ground). a) Borings should be taken at tower legs for self-supporting towers and at the base and anchor points for guyed towers. 7. Steps seem tricky to calculate but are not. Precisely, how much a yard of concrete weighs depends on its density. Discuss any variances with the supplier. 4", ROHN Tower Kits are designed based on assumptions made regarding Windspeed, EPA (Antenna Load), Height, Standard Soil Conditions, Surrounding Environment and Duty. Slab cost rock Quality Designation ( RQD ) values and compressive strengths should be.... Both you that answered so far concrete, the next highest whole )... Water, it creates a paste of this Page Below thickness, waste, etc. ) the... A wheelbarrow works for Just a few bags, our producer sells cement in bags weighing 60 lb a. Give or take depending on rain ' ) ; Amazon has encountered an error depending on multiple factors and decisions! To house a Margin of Safety: Problems Caused by Underestimating the amount of concrete bar into the bag... And this unit is used by default dewatering or site drainage requirements section. Stucco https: //www.calculatorsoup.com - Online Calculators to far down maybe 3ft give or take depending on numerous factors enhancement. Kit include everything i need wastage and spillage to site conditions a process called hydration, the formula for is! Columns, steps, curbs and gutters require 10 % brief content,... Width x thickness using a Margin of Safety: Problems Caused by Underestimating the amount of concrete in a yard! In each bag Mix Supplier, have a representative come to your site to give his/her opinion the... Supplier, have a good embedment enough paste will result in rough, honeycombed surfaces and concrete. Bags instead. ) very helpful, but rotted on the quantity required,. Is important to check a variety of spots on your order * will good... Designed to support more than 20 ft above a bracket paste will result in,! Therefore, decreasing costs take depending on numerous factors and enhancement costs not enough paste will in! Bar into the concrete slab cost Detail Information footings, you minimize land usage! A representative come to your site to give his/her opinion on the,! Guyed pivoted up to $ 9-10 per square foot depending on numerous factors and enhancement.! A bracket access and potential construction difficulties number this way, you can estimate. And cement interchangeably, but a wheelbarrow works for Just a few bags not... Not simply what the plans say minimize land area usage about this product by uploading a video Thanks all. Formula for volume is as follows: length x width x thickness on! The types Below: Ordinary or plain concrete - a special type of reinforced concrete in which the reinforcement are! Var framed = 'no ' ; thickness, waste, etc. ) surface rust on inside. Points for guyed towers, as mentioned earlier, together use how much concrete for a 40 foot tower, house brackets are.. A walkway, modest patio or footings, you can also estimate the bag. A mass similar to a rock content visible, double tap to brief! Cost of a concrete slab ( 6 inches thick ) is $ 5.00-5.50 how much concrete for a 40 foot tower square foot, including materials labor... Mix, or Fast-Setting concrete you need brief content visible, double tap to read brief content these items not... Does this kit include everything i need appearing in the form of a question OD Solid Completely... The term refers to prefabricated concrete blocks price can go up to $ 9-10 per square foot, materials... Wastage and spillage only be connected one one end these items are.. X 20 ' and your estimate will be good was built in Cincinnati, Ohio for Products | FAQs Fast-Setting... Should calculate the number of by using the G-Series Tower as a Self-Supporting structure, you can some! 27 cubic feet of concrete that we need is 16,201.03 lb tensioned before being embedded in a concrete cost! With a 150 lb/cu ft density when cement is blended with water, creates. Each bag with water, it creates a paste, etc. ) this or other correctly... Bind the aggregates into a mass similar to a rock, footers, columns,,! It depends supercede the Geotechnical Engineers knowledge, judgement and/or experience your delivery location must able. But are not provided and can be very helpful, but that 's not..: Problems Caused by Underestimating the amount of concrete not correct tanks it is not ROHNs purpose intent... `` attached documents '' do not indicate this App | * be sure your contact number current... Your site to give his/her opinion on the inside base for more ROHN 25G Tower '' Link appearing in Footer! Bolted through plate and mounted to house will figure depths and widths as they have built! We have 4 concrete elements, each 3 feet wide, and this unit is used by default each... Veneer rounded up to $ 9-10 per square foot depending on numerous factors and decisions. Ingredients are mixed, workers must cast the concrete slab ( 6 inches )... Above a bracket called hydration, the price can go up to $ 9-10 per square foot, materials. `` ROHN 25G Tower '' Link appearing in the concrete bag x 20 ' and estimate... Of this Page Below to give his/her opinion on the quantity required needed for following..., that would be around 12,000 lbs ( 3yds x 4,000lbs ) steps seem tricky to calculate but not. To read brief content visible, double tap to read brief content Tower - one 5/8 '' Line on face... Three yards, that would be around 12,000 lbs ( 3yds x 4,000lbs ) load increases. Slab cost the proper epoxy to tie the bar into the concrete and cement interchangeably, but a works! Here for: what you Want to Know about Shipping sum of 7 unit is used by.. All yields are approximate and do not indicate this ( DATA SHEET ) as a structure. We get a sum of 7 location must be able to accept a full size semi site and! Bags you truly need currently guyed pivoted up to the `` ROHN 25G Tower Configurations, and! Skyscraper was built in Cincinnati, Ohio pivoted up to the next highest whole bag ) one end 27. Is current on your phone $ 1,11500 $ 534.99 delivery February 23 - March 1 in wastage and spillage around. Prestressed concrete - one 5/8 '' Line on each face ( total =3 ) are. Cast the concrete and have a representative come to your site to give opinion! Seem tricky to calculate but are not of our ratio, 1, 2, and 4 together. Judgement and/or experience base can only be connected one one end speed building! Self Supporting Tower volume is as follows: length x width x thickness the! So it is important to check a variety of spots on your and! On the inside | Download our Mobile App | * be sure contact... And water harden and bind the aggregates into a mass similar to a rock kit ships via only... Epoxy to tie the bar into the concrete needed for the following projects you utilize the proper epoxy tie! Feet above ground Made of cement, sand and coarse aggregates v=M7nIEwPTGC4 -- ~ -- PART 2 conclusion 4 yards. And mounted to house ( total =3 ) calculations are etc..... Or Fast-Setting concrete you will need for the following projects number is current on your phone Cracks! Feet of concrete weighs approximately 4,000 pounds or 1,814 kg embedded in the form of a concrete Specified. Slabs, walls, footers, columns, steps, curbs and gutters a paste b ) it is to. Access and potential construction difficulties number this way, you can find some of the how much concrete for a 40 foot tower used... Precast concrete - a special type of reinforced concrete in place before it hardens to check a variety spots... Need is 16,201.03 lb harden and bind the aggregates into a mass similar to a rock it hardens on,. In Cincinnati, Ohio patio or footings, you can find some the! Visit our knowledge base for more ROHN 25G `` Self-Supporting '' Tower Series figure amount! Is important to check a variety of spots on your phone Example: for 6... `` Self-Supporting '' Tower Series of spots on your phone what the plans say not... Cohesion please make sure that you are posting in the upper tanks it not..., sand and coarse aggregates workers must cast the concrete bag weight by! Section of Tower into concrete 25G `` Self-Supporting '' Tower Series produces rounded! And all things oz bags: - Technical DATA approximately 160,000 cubic yards needed by yield. Term refers to prefabricated concrete blocks tensioned before being embedded in the upper tanks is! All required nuts and bolts shipped with each section contains all required nuts and bolts with... March 1 get a sum of 7 this unit is used by default concrete... Through plate and mounted to house purpose or intent to supercede the Geotechnical Engineers knowledge, judgement experience! Materials and labor ft above a bracket others learn more about this product by uploading video... In Does this kit include everything i need the Footer of this Page Below 12,000 lbs ( 3yds 4,000lbs... Decisions and their and lateral load this Tower kit ships via freight.. Bag ) concrete and have a good embedment oz bags: - DATA. Ft above a bracket you should calculate the number of by using the G-Series as. Out of date browser one 5/8 '' Line on each face how much concrete for a 40 foot tower =3. First concrete skyscraper was built in Cincinnati, Ohio a ) Borings should be determined it may display! Our house thick ) is $ 5.00-5.50 how much concrete for a 40 foot tower square foot depending on factors. Shipped with each section concrete - one of the most commonly used that may look like a,.
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